I am not a conservative
I am not a moderate
I am not a Democrat (Green, CWP etc)
I am not a Republican (Constitution, Libertarian Party etc)
I am an American.
I oppose abortion.
Does this mean I have to oppose Gay rights?
Why?
I oppose Bush.
Does this mean I have to support Obama?
Why?
I oppose war as a concept.
Does this mean I have to oppose Israel's right to self defense?
Why?
My point is... I am an independent thinker.
I look at topics and decide what I believe.
Makes sense to me.
This is why on my blogs you will find very diverse opinions, both from me and my guests.
I welcome diversity!
So long as the conversations remains civil.
Disagreement is good!
Disagreement make us think!
Disagreement helps uncover deeper truths!
But...
Not everyone likes to hear opposing views...
They would rather build a wall around themselves and be left to stagnate.
And that's their right!
And I respect that!
I NEVER post where I know my views are not welcomed.
(YOU are WELCOME and ENCOURAGED to post here!)
But you never know... people who seem to be open minded and into honest conversation are not always as they appear.
A case in point...
"I Dream of Jeanie" (Jeanie) was my contact. She posted a blog referencing "the Gay Bible" that someone has created as an obvious allegory for demonstrating how many Christians abuse the Bible to condemn the GLBT community. The posted comments were much as one might expect... God's wrath this and disgusting that... so I replied, explaining the obvious allegorical nature of the piece and the conversation proceeded from there.
Since I backed up my points with scripture (people were using unsubstantiated references to the Bible) and she could not, she dropped and blocked me and removed most of what I had written.
Part of what I like about blogging is the free exchange of ideas. This frightens many people (especially many Christians it seems because most don't know what the Bible actually teaches). Rather than be open to dialogue, such people tend to stick their heads in the sand, so to speak.
Here's part of that conversation (if you'd like to visit her site and re-post what I've missed -- including what has been said in my absence -- you're invited to). If you'd like to continue the conversation here that'd be cool too.
Also let me know your thoughts on people who post opposing views to your blog entries. Do you welcome diversity of thought or only those who agree with you? I don't post nearly as much as I used to to other people's blogs just this reason. When my long time friend Kitty dropped for opposing Obama I pretty much stop posting elsewhere. My intention is to discuss not to offend.
So...
http://jeaniefree.multiply.com/journal/item/1147/THE_GAY_BIBLE?replies_read=12
alaskanman wrote today at 5:12 AM
Thats just sick. He will pay in the end!
mt4grace2 wrote today at 6:09 AM
Just go ahead and stop the planet. I'm ready for discharge. I really am, Jeannie, and I know you're right there with me, girl. I just can't even comment properly on this one, they've stumped me on this one. WRONG just isn't wrong enough here.
I didn't read much at all, who says they've gotten this new news from God, or are they just saying they don't need a god, they'll just ordain their own religion?
iggyigette
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retrochcop wrote today at 7:44 AM
Oh great! Adam and Steve.
harveyviper
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harveyviper wrote today at 8:52 AM
I have not even read this yet and I am asking what if the world is going on?
boycotthell
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boycotthell wrote today at 8:55 AM
Romans 1:27-29 (King James Version)
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
(My reply to this one seems to be why she blocked me, see below)
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harveyviper wrote today at 8:57 AM
Simple question for these people; What would happen to humans if they were all to turn queer and they turned away from the opposite sex?
Simple answer from a Red Neck; Humans would die out after ONE generation because there would be no more reproduction.
bear71
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bear71 wrote today at 9:03 AM
Oh boy the big guy in the sky is surely not pleased about this!
harveyviper
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harveyviper wrote today at 9:05 AM
bear71 said
Oh boy the big guy in the sky is surely not pleased about this!
He is going to get His own soon and take His Spirit out of this world soon.
My first reply:
johnofallfaith wrote today at 10:02 AM, edited today at 10:05 AM
I suspect you're missing the point here.
IF the Bible did condemn heterosexuality, IF there were six or seven verses that said, "Man shall not lie with woman as he lieth with a man, it is an abomination" etc. what would you do?
Would you "become" homosexual if the Bible commanded it? Could you?
Would you leave your husband if the "real Bible" was discovered and condemned your natural sexual orientation?
Would you be offended by Gay ("normal") Christians condemning your right to marry, to serve your country, to raise kinds, etc. etc. simply because of the love you have for your husband? -- A love that dare not speak its name.
Would having the "normal" (gay) Christians constantly condemning you make you feel inclined to come to God or would they not push you farther and farther away from Him?
I suspect that's the point.
And it is a good one.
Jesus said: Whosoever shall come unto me I will in no wise cast out.
By the way, the New International Version (NIV) butchers the traditional Bible at least as much as this allegorical one does as I demonstrate Here
bear71
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bear71 wrote today at 10:06 AM, edited today at 10:07 AM
Oh so let's all bow down to queers and dikes. Let them butcher the U.S. Constitution meaning of marriage between a man and a woman.
bear71
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bear71 wrote today at 10:11 AM
Let us cradle in our hands the filth of homosexuality and the consequences of disease and drug use.
bear71
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bear71 wrote today at 10:12 AM
60% of homo-sexuals ingest a large amount of fecal matter per year.
bear71
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bear71 wrote today at 10:12 AM
That's always nice eh?
Disgusting!
johnofallfaith
johnofallfaith wrote today at 10:12 AM
Let's all uphold the US Constitution that guarantees ALL Americans the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
IF the CHRISTIAN Church was doing its job the US would not be in the mess its in today:
Rev. 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
As foretold, the Church has become lukewarm and hypocritical and would rather throw mud at the people than invite them to the Living waters.
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bear71 wrote today at 10:14 AM
Sure....I think every church needs a good flaming fag as their pastor.
NOT!
johnofallfaith
johnofallfaith wrote today at 10:15 AM
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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bear71 wrote today at 10:17 AM
johnofallfaith said
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
No amount of scripture you post will change the abomonation of homo-sexuality. You want to cradle it as some natural giving right go right ahead. But don't try to cram your justification for appeasement down my throat.
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bear71 wrote today at 10:21 AM
I'm headed to work now I will check into this blog tonight.
johnofallfaith
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And my replies further were removed and I was blocked and dropped.
I posted what Romans 1 actually teaches as follows.
Our CONTEXT begins at 1:15 and 16:
- "So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."
Paul, through inspiration of the Holy Spirit, begins the topic by stating that he is talking about the Gospel of Jesus and how it must be preached and practiced, and how those who love God will accept it joyfully. We note, for the purposes of this study, that lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered (LGBT) Christians do accept the Gospel both readily and joyfully. This study exists to demonstrate that neither the Bible in general or Romans 1 in particular prohibits this community from accepting and living the Gospel fully.
Verse 18:
- For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
The wrath of God is revealed from Heaven onto those who hold this truth in unrighteousness. We are therefore speaking of people who hold God's spiritual Truth and salvation in unrighteousness, i.e.. we are discussing abuses which are done in the name of religious truth. Devout Christians do not knowingly do this regardless of the sexual orientation.
Verse 19:
- Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.
"Because that which may be known of God..." Again, religious truth is the topic, not sexual orientation or even sexual morality. 'That which may be known' of God' is that which has been revealed in the Holy Scriptures and by the Holy Spirit. These things attest to God's righteousness and should be honored.
Verse 20:
- For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
From what is visible we should know the invisible, i.e. God and God's truths are revealed through our senses. We can behold the handiwork of God all around us if we but look and these things confirm the existence of God, hence we have no excuse to deny God's existence.
Verse 21:
- Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
These people being discussed knew God but chose to submit themselves to their "vain imagines" rather than to God. In other words, they invented new forms of religion, forms that satisfied their base urges and ungodly desires. We are still discussing religion here not sexuality.
Verses 22, 23:
- Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
These people claimed to be wise in their spiritual beliefs, and yet they were foolish, rejecting the true God, they worshiped false idols and "changed the glory of God into an image..." and worshiped that rather than the true God. Still, we're talking about religious practices and abuses, not sexuality. The Roman Empire, which would include Jewish Palestine, was filled with such worship. Pagan temples offered everything desirable and blasphemed the Creator of heaven and earth. Paul here condemns such worship.
Verse 24:
- Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
"WHEREFORE..." Wherefore, i.e. because they rejected God and worshiped idols and followed the paths of their vain imaginations rather than worshiping the One True God... FOR THIS REASON God gave these people up to their lusts.
The CONTEXT of these lusts is the unauthorized desire-based religious practices of the day. These have nothing to do with modern day consensual sexual relationships, whether they be heterosexual or homosexual.
As was common throughout the very religious Roman Empire, such idol worship INCLUDED sexual 'sacrifices' and rites wherein the worshiper engaged in 'sex magic' with temple priests and/or priestesses in the guise of spiritual ecstasy -- AS THOUGH the temple prostitute were the Pagan deity incarnate. THUS, the context here has NOTHING to do with contemporary homosexuality among Christians (or otherwise).
Verse 25:
- Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
"WHO..." i.e. these people engaging in ritual sex magic and worshiping the Pagan idols, who were "exchanging the truth of God for a lie," and who were committing idolatry through their sex rites and thereby serving the created images and their own carnal desires rather than the true God, who alone is blessed for ever.
Verses 26, 27:
- For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
"FOR THIS REASON..." i.e. because these people exchanged the worship of the true God for idols and sex rites, God "gave them up" to their own carnal desires.
The natural use or purpose of sexuality according to the Bible is procreation AND building/sustaining strong marital relationships (comp. I Cor 7:2). These people however were using their sexuality "against nature" by employing it to worship the idols of false gods. Through such sexual activities they sought two basic goals: One was the physical pleasures of sexual congress and the other, perhaps more significant in this context, was the promised spiritual union with their gods and the acquiring of benefits thereof. This is not the goal of sexuality intended by God but as these people willfully rejected God, they were allowed to go their own ways. Again, this was very common at the time throughout the empire.
These worshipers were "working that which is unseemly." The use of the word "working" shows that there was a specific end result in mind, i.e. earning the blessings of the Pagan deities, the normal reason for all idolatry. All they received for their "work" however was venereal diseases "...and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was fitting..." The sex cults throughout the empire were hotbeds of sexual diseases and the worshipers often became infected.
THOSE WHO TWIST these scriptures by saying they refer to HIV in our contemporary culture -- and I know some of you are out there! -- need to consider that this verse is the only one in the Bible that can be TWISTED to include lesbians. Lesbians remain among the lowest at risk for HIV and, after years of education, the gay male community is no longer the highest at-risk group. If this dreadful illness were God's wrath against homosexuals neither would be the case, nor would children be so at risk, nor the disabled, nor those in need of blood transfusions etc..
Verse 28:
- And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
"And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge...." The subject is still religious faith; it has not changed. These people did not want to acknowledge the true God's existence. They preferred to worship idols of their own imaginings and trust in dangerous sex rites for their salvation. AGAIN AND STILL the subject matter, the context, is not homosexuality but idolatry coupled with sex rites, heterosexual AND homosexual. FOR THIS REASON, because of their spiritual harlotry, God gave them over to a "reprobate mind" and allowed them to believe that their false worship was approved by God when in reality, they were in direct opposition to God's holy will due to their pseudo-spiritual abuses.
In sharp contrast with this, LGBT Christian ministries are growing like wild fire, individual independent churches, groups like the Alliance of Christian Churches, the Gay Pentecostal Alliance, The Evangelical Network, the Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches and so on, are now home to thousands of sincere homosexual followers of Jesus who WANT God in their knowledge, their minds, their hearts and in their lives just as other Christians do. In addition to these ministries, more and more mainline churches and denominations are becoming "reconciling and affirming" of LGBT people. This fact alone demonstrates that these verses are not referring to gay and lesbian Christian people. As with any other community, lesbians and gays vary as to their acceptance and understandings of the Gospel message. A very large percentage of those who are not pro-Jesus have had their hearts hardened by abuses which well meaning Christians have subjected them to. The Church is failing miserably at evangelizing this community and will doubtless be held accountable by the one who said "Whoever comes unto Me I will in no case reject."
Verse 29-31:
- Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents; without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:"
What resulted from their being "given over to a reprobate mind?" As a result of their religious rebellion against God, these developed the various moral weaknesses described in these verses. LGBT Christians, as all other Believers, seek to avoid such traits in their lives.
Verse 32:
- Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
"Who knowing..." i.e. the people being discussed in the previous verses, these idolatrous worshipers who are filled with all unrighteousness etc., "knowing the judgment of God, that they who commit such things are worthy of death..." That idolatry merited the death penalty for Jews under the Mosaic Law is clear. As I explained elsewhere however, despite the two verses in Leviticus which are sometimes cited, homosexuality is not a capital offense nor even negatively commented upon in the Torah.
----..
But Jeanie deleted it...
So... your thoughts?
jeaniefree
jeaniefree
Jeanie is [was] your online buddy
Oklahoma City, OK
Seems likes...
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