Welcome to Thus Says the Prophets!
Welcome to Thus Says the Prophets!
Questions About the End Times
Who, What, Where, Why and When Types of Issues
A Reader asks...
- Questioner: Patrick
Private: No
Subject: eschatology
Question: I have studied end times for many years now and like to get other people's opinions. I think that we are seeing many things going on right now that we see in Eze 38-39, matthew 24 and others. Can you elaborate, is the war between Gog and Magog and Israel the same as Armageddon or are they different wars? Do you believe in a rapture? Please elaborate on that as well
Thank you
My Reply:
Hi Patrick,
This is one of the main topics I post on these days and volumes could be said. Feel free to write back ;-)
I am 110% convinced that these are "the Last Days."
Depending on how one defines the terms, the Last Days can be thought of as beginning November 2, 1917 with the signing of the Balfour declaration (the British guarantee of Israel's establishment within the Palestinian Mandate), or with the 1947 establishment of Israel, or with the 1968 Jewish re-acquisition of Zion (Jerusalem). Others say they will not technically begin until the Antichrist is revealed.
This can rightly be debated in my opinion.
What is certain, as far as I'm concerned, is that the generation that witnessed Israel's rebirth WILL BE the final generation of this present age. This means that there will be people alive at the final war (Armageddon) who were alive in 1968 if not 1947 (I lean toward the 1947 date personally).
At Matt. 24:3 we read,
- "And as he [Master Y'shua] sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
The "end of the world" in the original is "aion" or age, not world. The "age" that will be ending is "the Times of the Gentiles":
- Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Now that we are living during the conclusion of the Times of the Gentiles the Nicean Church is being 'vomited out of God's mouth' as foretold (Rev. 3:14-10) and 'severed from the tree of Israel' (Rom 11).
But first...
The Jews, Christians and others (as groups -- there will be MANY exceptions including "144,000 Jews" and a "great multitude" of Gentiles), will accept the coming Antichrist or Rex Mundi -- the Global Ruler -- as their Master and Lord. "Babylon the Great" -- a Global Secular Humanist religion dedicated to Rex Mundi as prophet and World Teacher -- will emerge from Rome and become the dominant religion.
Three and a half years after the Rex Mundi signs a specific peace treaty with Israel he will betray them. At that point the Jews, especially those living in Israel, will have a mass conversion to the God of Israel and will beg HaShem to send Moshiach to rescue them. Of this coming event Master Y'shua tells us:
- Matt 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
In other words, to save the JEWS Moshiach will come.
ALL those who bless Israel will be blessed and ALL those who curse Israel will be cursed (Gen 12:3).
In a nutshell, the present move towards world government that has been building since well before the US surrendered its sovereignty to International mainly Aryan (and mainly European) bankers with the PRIVATE BANK known as the Federal Reserve is the establishment of the government over which the Rex Mundi (Antichrist) will rule. It is called the Novus Ordo Seclorum, the New Secularist Age. Evidence of it is as near as the back of your one dollar Federal Reserve note.
Once the Global Union is declared and the US falls as a major player, the new global leader will arise from Europe. We do not know the day or the hour that this will happen, but the "Watch" is almost up.
- Matt 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
We are nearing the end of the "Watch."
So... Rex Mundi will rule for 3 1/2 years, be assassinated, turn viciously on the Jews and their supporters, and then rule for just shy of another 3 1/2.
At that point forces from China, Russia and the Muslim south (al Ikhwan -- the Muslim Brotherhood headquartered in Egypt) will mount an attack on Jerusalem (where the Rex Mundi will be at the time) attempting to unseat him. They will gather in the Valley of Megiddo for their assault on the Rex Mundi.
At this point Moshiach will intervene and destroy all sides of the conflict (and all enemies of Israel) and take up his reign over Israel (restored to its boundaries declared to Abraham and others). The rest of the nations will maintain independence but will submit to Moshiach as "over-king" as we read here:
- Zech 8:20 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities:
21 And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the LORD, and to seek the LORD of hosts: I will go also.
22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD.
23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
The specific prophecies of Gog of Magog appear to be referencing a second assault on Jerusalem that will take place at the end of the Thousand Year Reign of Moshiach by the same peoples will be involved. "Gog" will be a ruler of "Magog" and Magog is the ancient name of Moscow and the Russian peoples. So, the specific Gog of Magog prophecies do not appear to be speaking of Armageddon in my opinion. This is a point of some debate and I would never strongly disagree with anyone on this point.
As for the Rapture... No, I do not believe it is a biblical doctrine. I have a rather detailed study of this subject here: http://allfaith.com/Religions/Noahide/rapture.html that may be of some interest to you.
Here's a brief excerpt:
By Ben Ruach ha Kodesh (John of AllFaith) © 4.16.08
The Doctrine of the Rapture of the Church is the popular Christian belief that at some point in the future HaShem will extract all true Christians from the earth, "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye," leaving everyone else here to suffer under the reign of the coming Antichrist or Rex Mundi. The notion gained popular support through the teachings of Dr. Clarence Larkin ("Dispensational Truths"), Rev. Charles Scofield ("the Scofield Bible"), a plethora of "Second and Third Great Awakening" Evangelists (see my study The Great Awakenings for more on these religious developments), and most recently from the unbiblical works of fiction by Tim Lahey known as The Left Behind Series in which the Antichrist is depicted as a Transylvanian Dracula-type Liberal do-gooder gone bad!
In Summary:
- This is a new doctrine, not historically held by any segment of the Church.
- Christians can't agree on the question of timing: Pre, Mid or Post Tribulation, so it's obviously not that clear at best. If this earth shaking event were truly a biblical prophecy it would be made clear.
- The Pre-Tribulation Rapture (currently the most commonly held view) is directly and repeatedly contradicted by the clear teachings about who will be opposing the Rex Mundi and when. According to the prophets, Believers will be present throughout the Seven Years.
- At certain points in the Tribulation, including during the second half, the Great Tribulation, Believers will receive certain protections from certain of the coming plagues and so will obviously still be on the earth.
- A reason often given for why the Rapture must occur is that Holy Spirit must be removed during the reign of the Beast. Were this so, no one post Rapture could be "saved" or have report with God yet the prophets show Divine intervention and inspiration will occur throughout the period and the oft stated presence of Believers on earth.
- Master Y'shua does not discuss or even reference the Rapture in his important Matthew 24 list of signs for, "When will these things be."
- Master Y'shua's Matthew 24 reference to 'those in the field' being "taken" is clearly speaking of the Jews of Jerusalem who will flee the City once the Rex Mundi declares his divinity and the "abomination of desolation spoken of by Prophet Daniel" occurs, and not to a Rapture when read in context.
- Master Y'shua does not discuss or even reference a Rapture in his prophetic presentation to John in the Book Revelations
- Modern Christians do not honor the Sabbath (as commanded in the Bible) and so the Master's concern that this fleeing not take place on the Sabbath has no meaning for modern Christians. Master Y'shua would surely have known the Church would abandon the Sabbath three hundred years after his death.
- 'Those in the field,' 'on the roof tops' etc. are encouraged to run rather than return home for their belongings. Such options would not exist in the Rapture as taught and so the reference can not be to it.
- Believers are advised to stand firm against the Antichrist. To do so they must be present on the earth during his reign.
- The "Last Trump" is blown to announce the establishment of the Kingdom of God on Earth. The reference therefore to Paul in I Cor 15 specifically refers to the time that trumpet is blown. The Rapture, as conceived, would have taken place years before this horn is sounded. It is sounded when the Jews are ALL gathered back to Jerusalem for the inauguration of the global theocracy (i.e. at the end of the Seven Year tribulation period).
- God never granted this type of protection to the Jews, His Elect, even during the Russian Pograms and Nazi Shoah and there is no biblical evidence that He will do so for the Christians who at the time are described as being lukewarm and hypocritical.
- Revelations 6:9 makes it clear that during the entire seven year period those martyred by the Antichrist and his New World Order must patiently wait, "until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." This clearly shows there will be no Rapture to rescue their fellow Believers from martyrdom.
- The prophetic word about the future of the Church: Through the Seven Church Ages the Church draws progressively farther and farther away from the God of Israel until, in the End Times, it will embrace the Antichrist and God will "vomit it from His mouth" and 'sever the Church from the 'Tree of Israel' and cast it into the 'fire'. If the Church deserves to be vomited out how and why would God rapture it away to safety and bliss?
- The foretold Church of the Last Days is a lukewarm, hypocritical body that has abandoned the teachings of Master Y'shua and become largely irrelevant in the world [surrendering its position to Secular Humanism and eventually to the Rex Mundi as Babylon the Great and her daughters]. Portions of the Church are even now being "vomited out of God's Mouth" as is obvious in the various sex and money scandals, the lack of Christian opposition to the New World Order, the practice of abortion, infanticide, euthanasia, etc. The fallen Church of today will not be raptured away for its protection. The very idea is an insult to God's holiness and justice!
Now let's consider these points in detail:
Continued on my website: http://allfaith.com/Religions/Noahide/rapture.html
I believe the Doctrine of the Rapture, no matter how comforting it may be, is designed to lull Bible Believers into a false sense of security. Believers are commanded to stand against evil, but due in part to this belief, as well as the misapplication of Romans 13, many many Christians have become apathetic... even as the prophets foretold.
As I've said, this is complex and potentially voluminous topic. Do feel free to write back if you wish.
- ~ John of AllFaith
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PRETRIB RAPTURE DISHONESTY
by Dave MacPherson
When I began my research in 1970 into the exact beginnings of the pretribulation rapture belief still held by many evangelicals, I assumed that the rapture debate involved only "godly scholars with honest differences." The paper you are now reading reveals why I gave up that assumption many years ago. With this introduction-of-sorts in mind, let's take a long look at the pervasive dishonesty throughout the history of the 179-year-old pretrib rapture theory:
Mid-1820's - German scholar Max Weremchuk's work "John Nelson Darby" (1992) included what Benjamin Newton revealed about John Darby in the mid-1820's during his pre-Brethren days as an Anglican clergyman:
"J. N. Darby was a very subtle man. He had been a lawyer, or at least educated for the law. Once he wanted his Archbishop to pursue a certain course, when he (J.N.D.) was a curate in his diocese. He wrote a letter, therefore, saying he had been educated for the law, knew what the legal course would properly be; and then having written that clearly, he mystified the remainder of the letter both in word and in handwriting, and ended up by saying: You see, my Lord, such being the legal aspect of the case it would unquestionably be the best course for you to pursue, etc. And the Archbishop couldn't make out the legal part, but rested on Darby's word and did as he advised. Darby afterwards laughed over it, and indeed he showed a copy of the letter to Tregelles. This is not mentioned in the Archbishop's biography, but in it is the fact that he spoke of Darby as 'the most subtle man in my diocese.'"
This reminds me of an 1834 letter by Darby which spoke of the "Lord's coming." Darby added, concerning this coming, that "the thoughts are new" and that during any teaching of it "it would not be well to have it so clear." Darby's deviousness here was his usage of a centuries-old term - "Lord's coming" - to cover up his desire to sneak the new pretrib idea into existing posttrib groups in very low-profile ways!
1830 - In the spring of 1830 a young Scottish lassie, Margaret Macdonald, came up with the novel notion of a catching up [rapture] of Spirit-filled "church" members before Antichrist's "trial" [tribulation] of non-Spirit-filled "church" members - the first instance I've found of clear "pretrib" teaching (which was part of a partial rapture scheme). In Sep. 1830 "The Morning Watch" (a journal produced by London preacher Edward Irving and his "Irvingite" followers, some of whom had visited Margaret a few weeks earlier) began repeating her original thoughts and even her wording but gave her no credit - the first plagiarism I've found in pretrib history. Darby was still defending posttrib in Dec. 1830.
Pretrib promoters have long known the significance of her main point: a rapture of "church" members BEFORE the revealing of Antichrist. Which is why John Walvoord quoted nothing in her revelation, why Thomas Ice habitually skips over her main point but quotes lines BEFORE and AFTER it, and why Hal Lindsey muddies up her main point so he can (falsely) assert that she was NOT a pretribber! (Google "X-Raying Margaret" for info about her.)
NOTE: The development of the 1800's is thoroughly documented in my book "The Rapture Plot." You'll learn that Darby wasn't original on any chief aspect of dispensationalism (but plagiarized the Irvingites); that pretrib was initially based on only OT and NT symbols and not clear Scripture; that the symbols included the Jewish feasts, the two witnesses, and the man child - symbols adopted by Darby during most of his career; that Darby's later reminiscences exaggerated his earliest pretrib development, and that today's defenders such as Thomas Ice have further overstated what Darby overstated; that Irvingism didn't need later reminiscences to "clarify" its own early pretrib development; that ancient hymns and even the writings of the Reformers were subtly revised to make it appear they had taught pretrib; and that after Darby's death a clever revisionist quietly made many changes in early Irvingite and Brethren documents in order to steal credit for pretrib away from the Irvingites (and their female inspiration!) and give it dishonestly to Darby! (Before continuing, Google the "Powered by Christ Ministries" site and read "America's Pretrib Rapture Traffickers" - a sample of the current exciting internetism!)
1920 - Charles Trumbull's book "The Life Story of C. I. Scofield" told only the dispensationally-correct side of his life. Two recent books, Joseph Canfield's "The Incredible Scofield and His Book" (1988) and David Lutzweiler's "DispenSinsationalism: C. I. Scofield's Life and Errors" (2006), reveal the other side including his being jailed as a forger, dishonestly giving himself a non-conferred "D.D." etc. etc.!
1967 - Brethren scholar Harold Rowdon's "The Origins of the Brethren" quoted Darby associate Lord Congleton who was "disgusted with...the falseness" of Darby's accounts of things. Rowdon also quoted historian William Neatby who said that others felt that "the time-honoured method of single combat" was as good as anything "to elicit the truth" from Darby. (In other words, knock it out of him!)
1972 - Tim LaHaye's "The Beginning of the End" (1972) plagiarized Hal Lindsey's "The Late Great Planet Earth" (1970).
1976 - Charles Ryrie"s "The Living End" (1976) plagiarized Lindsey's "The Late Great Planet Earth" (1970) and "There's A New World Coming" (1973).
1976 - After John Walvoord's "The Blessed Hope and the Tribulation" (1976) brutally twisted Robert Gundry's "The Church and the Tribulation" (1973), Gundry composed and circulated a 35-page open letter to Walvoord which repeatedly charged the Dallas Seminary president with "misrepresentation," "misrepresentations" (and variations)!
1981 - "The Fundamentalist Phenomenon" (1981) by Jerry Falwell, Ed Dobson, and Ed Hindson heavily plagiarized George Dollar's 1973 book "A History of Fundamentalism in America."
1984 - After a prof at Southeastern College of the Assemblies of God in Florida told me that the No. 2 man at the AG world headquarters in Missouri - Joseph Flower - had the label of posttrib, my wife and I had two hour-long chats with him. He verified what I had been told. But we were dumbstruck when he told us that although AG ministers are required to promote pretrib, privately they can believe any other rapture view! Flower said that his father, an AG co-founder, was also posttrib. We also learned while in Springfield that when the AG's were organized in 1914, the initial group was divided between posttribs and pretribs - but that the pretribs shouted louder which resulted in that denomination officially adopting pretrib! (For details on this and other pretrib double-mindedness, Google "Pretrib Hypocrisy.")
1989 - Since 1989 Thomas Ice has referred to the "Mac-theory" (his reference to my research), giving the impression there's no solid evidence that Macdonald was the real pretrib originator. But Ice carefully conceals the fact that no eminent church historian of the 1800's - whether Plymouth Brethren or Irvingite - credited Darby with pretrib. Instead, they uniformly credited leading Irvingite sources, all of which upheld the Scottish lassie's contribution! Moreover, I'm hardly the only modern scholar seeing significance in Irvingism's territory. Others in recent years who have noted it, but who haven't mined it as deeply as I have, include Fuller, Ladd, Bass, Rowdon, Sandeen, and Gundry.
1989 - Greg Bahnsen and Kenneth Gentry produced evidence in 1989 that Lindsey's book "The Road to Holocaust" (1989) plagiarized "Dominion Theology" (1988) by H. Wayne House and Thomas Ice.
1990 - David Jeremiah's and C. C. Carlson's "Escape the Coming Night" (1990) massively plagiarized Lindsey's 1973 book "There's A New World Coming." (For more info, type in "Thieves' Marketing" on MSN or Google.)
1991 - Paul Lee Tan's "A Pictorial Guide to Bible Prophecy" (1991) plagiarized large amounts of Lindsey's "The Late Great Planet Earth" (1970).
1991 - Militant Darby defender R. A. Huebner claimed in 1991 to have found new evidence that Darby was pretrib as early as 1827 - three years before Macdonald. Halfway through his book Huebner suddenly admitted that his evidence could refer to something completely un-rapturesque. Even though Thomas Ice admitted to me that he knew that Huebner had "blown" his so-called evidence, prevaricator Ice continues to tell the world that Huebner has "positive evidence" that Darby was pretrib in 1827! Ice also conceals the fact that Darby, in his own 1827 paper, was looking for only "the restitution of all things" and "the times of refreshing" (Acts 3:19,21) - which Scofield doesn't see fulfilled until AFTER a future tribulation!
1992 - Tim LaHaye's "No Fear of the Storm" (1992) plagiarized Walvoord's "The Blessed Hope and the Tribulation" (1976).
1992 - This was when the Los Angeles Times revealed that "The Magog Factor" (1992) by Hal Lindsey and Chuck Missler was a monstrous plagiarism of Prof. Edwin Yamauchi's scholarly 1982 work "Foes from the Northern Frontier." Four months after this exposure, Lindsey and Missler stated they had stopped publishing and promoting their book. But in 1996 Dr. Yamauchi learned that the dishonest duo had issued a 1995 book called "The Magog Invasion" which still had a substantial amount of the same plagiarism! (If Lindsey and Missler ever need hernia operations, I predict that the doctors will tell them not to lift anything for a long time!)
1994 - In 1996 it was revealed that Lindsey's "Planet Earth - 2000 A.D. (1994) had an embarrassing amount of plagiarism of a Texe Marrs book titled "Mystery Mark of the New Age" (1988).
1995 - My book "The Rapture Plot" reveals the dishonesty in Darby's reprinted works. It's often hard to tell who wrote the footnotes and when. It's easy to believe that the notes, and also unsigned phrases inside brackets within the text, were a devious attempt by someone (Darby? his editor?) to portray a Darby far more developed in pretrib thinking than he actually had been at the time. I found that some of the "additives" had been taken from Darby's much later works, when he was more developed, and placed next to or inside his earliest works! One footnote by Darby's editor, attached to Darby's 1830 paper, actually stated that "it was not worth while either suppressing or changing" anything in this work! If his editor wasn't open to such dishonesty, how can we explain such a statement?
Post-1995 - Thomas Ice's article "Inventor of False Pre-Trib Rapture History" states that my book "The Rapture Plot" is "only one of the latest in a series of revisions of his original discourse...." And David Reagan in his article "The Origin of the Concept of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture" repeats Ice's falsehood by claiming that I have republished my first book "over the years under several different titles."
Although my book repeats a bit of the Macdonald origin of pretrib (for new readers), all of my books are packed with new material not found in my other works. For some clarification, "The Incredible Cover-Up" has photos of pertinent places in Ireland, Scotland, and England not found in my later books plus several chapters dealing with theological arguments; "The Great Rapture Hoax" quotes scholars throughout the Church Age, covers Scofield's hidden side, a section on Powerscourt, the 1980 election, the Jupiter Effect, Gundry's change, and more theological arguments; "The Rapture Plot" reveals for the first time the Great Evangelical Revisionism/Robbery and includes appendices on miscopying, plagiarism, etc.; and "The Three R's" shows hypocritical evangelicals employing occultic beliefs they say they have long opposed!
So Thomas Ice etc. are twisting truth when they claim I am only a revisionist. Do they really think that my publishers DON'T know what I've previously written?
Re arguments, Google "Pretrib Rapture - Hidden Facts" and also obtain "The End Times Passover" and "Why Christians Will Suffer 'Great Tribulation' " (AuthorHouse, 2006) by media personality Joe Ortiz.
1997 - For years Harvest House Publishers has owned and been republishing Lindsey's book "There's A New World Coming." During the same time Lindsey has been peddling his reportedly "new" book "Apocalyse Code" (1997), much of which is word-for-word the same as the Harvest House book - and there's no notice of "simultaneous publishing" in either book! Talk about pretrib greed!
1997 - This is the year I discovered that more than 50 pages of Dallas Seminary professor Merrill Unger's book "Beyond the Crystal Ball" (Moody Press, 1973) constituted a colossal plagiarism of Lindsey's "The Late Great Planet Earth" (1970). After Lindsey's book came out, Unger had complained that Lindsey's book had plagiarized his classroom lecture notes. It was evident that Unger felt that he too should cash in on his own lectures! (The detailed account of this Dallas Seminary dishonesty is revealed in my 1998 book "The Three R's.")
1998 - Tim LaHaye's "Understanding the Last Days" (1998) plagiarized Lindsey's "There's A New World Coming" (1973).
1999 - More than 200 pages (out of 396 pages) in Lindsey's 1999 book "Vanished Into Thin Air" are virtually carbon copies of pages in his 1983 book "The Rapture" - with no "updated" or "revised" notice included! Lindsey has done the same nervy thing with several of his books, something that has allowed him to live in million-dollar-plus homes and drive cars like Ferraris! (See my Google articles "Deceiving and Being Deceived" and "Thieves' Marketing" for further evidence of this notably pretrib vice.)
2000 - A Jack Van Impe article "The Moment After" (2000) plagiarized Grant Jeffrey's book "Final Warning" (1995).
2001 - Since 2001 my web article "Walvoord's Posttrib 'Varieties' - Plus" has been exposing his devious muddying up of posttrib waters. In some of his books he invented four "distinct" and "contradictory" posttrib divisions, claiming that they are either "classic" or "semiclassic" or "futurist" or "dispensational" - distinctions that disappear when analyzed! His "futurist" group holds to a literal future tribulation and a literal millennium but doesn't embrace "any day" imminency. But his "dispensational" group has the same non-imminency! Moreover, tribulational futurism is found in every group except the first one, and he somehow admitted that a literal millennium is in all four groups! On the other hand, it's the pretribs who consistently disagree with each other over their chief points and subpoints - but somehow end up agreeing that there will be a pretrib rapture! (See my chapter "A House Divided" in my book "The Incredible Cover-Up.")
2001 - Since my "Deceiving and Being Deceived" web item which exposed the claims for Pseudo-Ephraem" and "Morgan Edwards" as teachers of pretrib, there has been a piranha-like frenzy on the part of pretrib bodyguards and their duped groupies to "discover" almost anything before 1830 walking upright on two legs that seemed to have at least a remote hint of pretrib! (An exemplary poster boy for such pretrib practice is Grant Jeffrey. To get your money's worth, Google "Wily Jeffrey.")
FINALLY: Don't take my word for any of the above. Read my 300-page book "The Rapture Plot" which has a jillion more documented details on the long-hidden but now-revealed history of the dishonest, 179-year-old, fringe-British-invented, American-merchandised-until-the-real-bad-stuff-happens pretribulation rapture fad. If this book of mine doesn't "move" you, I will personally refund what you paid for it!
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